Is Darrin Horn Worth the Wait?
Disclaimer: I'm not a basketball guy, so I generally stay out of conversations involving Xs and Os. But you don't need to be well-versed in basketball strategy to have an opinion on this situation. If you are basketball inclined, please feel free to question my assertions and check my facts. I had to write this story in hurry, as I'm about to leave town for the weekend.
It's been quite the week for the Gamecock basketball program. First news broke that Stephen Spinella and Ramon Galloway were leaving the team to pursue careers elsewhere. OK, fine. Spinella was virtually a non-factor this season and if the coaches didn't see fit to play him much this year, it wasn't likely that we has going to see the court much next year, either. The Galloway loss hurt a bit more, but it was not a critical blow to a team that had plenty of options to fill his absence. Then on Thursday we hear that Bruce Ellington will be joining the football team this coming season. Gamecock fans are divided along the spectrum of whether this is a good idea, but there is no denying that Ellington playing football is bad for the basketball team. Darrin Horn obviously saw Ellington as the piece around which to build his team. Now Ellington will be practicing football instead of basketball over the summer, and he won't even be available to the basketball team until almost the beginning of conference play. What's more is that he's likely to be fatigued from a season of football practices and games. That's a big deal for a player who saw his production decline as the season progressed, presumably due to the stresses of a Division 1 major college schedule. He might as well be off the team. And now comes news that Murphy Holloway is transferring back to Ole Miss, from whence he came. That's four player attrition in as many days, and the question has to be asked, "Can Darrin Horn recover from this?"
I'll answer that question with another question: "How could he?" The 2010-11 basketball season was miserable enough, but the one thing that kept us sane was the hope that, with experience, the team would improve the next season. Now the Gamecocks have shed 6 years of SEC experience and lost three players. Even with two top 150 recruits coming in next year, how much can the team really improve? We're probably looking at another season very similar this one - except without the win over Clemson.
Carolina's roe to hoe won't get any easier, either. The Gamecocks are already scheduled to take on Ohio State and UNC, teams that are one and two seeds in this year's NCAA tournament . There was already some grumbling about whether Horn was the right man for the job this year. Do you really think Gamecock fans are going to be just as patient after a similar season in 2012? What makes it all the worse is that Darrin Horn is in a quagmire of his own making. In none of his four years will Darrin Horn have fielded a team with the maximum number of scholarship players. We've been hearing that Darrin Horn is building a program - which takes time - for three years now. But after those three years the prospects for our program look bleaker than they ever did under Dave Odom. We're going to have trouble even fielding a team next season with only nine players on scholarship. In three years time that's as many players as Darrin Horn has driven off the team! Consider the following players Darrin Horn has shown the door because "They cannot help our team.":
Trevor Deloach - "Basically what (Horn) told me was I wasn’t good enough for the SEC."
Chad Gray - Violations of team rules.
Darrius Morrow - "I rarely talk to them (new head coach Darrin Horn's staff), and they go recruit other players in our class but they've barely talked to me, and I'm a signee," he told the paper. "So I just don't feel comfortable up there anymore."
Carter Mitchel - Transferred after being told he wouldn't see much playing time.
Austin Steed - "I've visited with Austin, and there's just not opportunity for him," Horn said.
Mike Holmes - Violation of team rules
Stephen Spinella - Opted to transfer
Ramon Galloway - Opted to transfer
Bruce Ellington - Decided football is more important to him
Murphy Holloway - Opted to transfer without ever playing a minute for USC
Taken one at a time these transfers and dismissals all seem quite reasonable. At the time I applauded Horn for implementing his style of play with the players he wanted. But taken together, I see a major problem in the way Darrin Horn is running his program. That's ten players in 3 years! Good Lord a'mighty! How is Darrin Horn going to recruit kids to come play for us with this track record?
After another sub-.500 year will Gamecock fans be willing to give Horn one more year based on the excuse that the team is still young? I doubt it. And all this is assuming we're not continually blowing games by 30 points! In all honesty, I think we might be better off trying to line up a new coach right now. Darrin Horn had his chance and he blew it. So he thinks those guys couldn't contribute to our program. But you have to ask yourself one question right now, who is contributing to Carolina basketball?
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Well, we probably have the worst team in school history right now, so ...
I think Horn needs to take responsibility for that, and step down.
stuff 'bout stuff.
Carolina Men's Hoops is now in complete, total freefall
Something has happened far beyond just two sub-.500 seasons. And when I say something bad, I’m talking about something worse than Coach Felton’s drinking or Sparky Woods’ player revolt.
To answer your question – no, we cannot wait on Horn. Horn is done. The only way to talk Ellington and Murphy Holloway (and possibly Ramon Galloway) back into the fold – not to mention hold onto our recruits – is to cut ties with Horn and bring in a coach who can right the ship now.
At this rate, we might not be able to attract even another a promising mid-major coach. Think about that.
They wore garnet helmets.
Well said, FW.
As you say, keeping him for another year would just be to delay the inevitable, because without Galloway, Ellington, and Holloway, this team will be lucky to win 10 games next year.
It’s time to fire Horn.
Garnet and Black Attack: A Blog By and For Gamecocks Fans.
Go hire Gregg Marshall, today
This is a disaster in the making. I’m talking Steve Newtonesque. At least Newton had won something at Murray State. Let’s hire Marshall before someone else gets him (Mizzou, UT, NC State?). This is a guy, from what I understand, that has always wanted to be at USC. We screwed up last time not hiring him away. Let’s fix that mistake, now.
Of course nothing will happen
until (a) Horn resigns or is fired, which may or may not even happen and (b) the NIT is over next Thur 3.31 (assuming the Shockers beat the Washington State Cougars).
They wore garnet helmets.
I used to defend Horn
But it is quickly becoming evident he has lost the support of his team. Losing Holloway may be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel’s back.
I dont even think his detractors ...
could have foreseen this meltdown. Holloway wanting to return to Oxford means there’s much, much deeper trouble than we could have realized during the season.
They wore garnet helmets.
Ellington
A lot of college players play two sports. I would prefer he focus on basketball but I don’t see why this is a big deal.
I think Horn has proven he can coach basketball but he needs talent to take this program to another level. Look at the list of players that have left the program. Would any of them start for a NCAA tournament team?
I think we were hoping
that Ellington and Holloway would/could be starting for us as a NCAA tournament team possibly in 2013. That possibility looks extremely remote.
They wore garnet helmets.
No offense, but...
Would any of them start for a NCAA tournament team?
My response to that is that while none of them were the best, the guys that are still here wouldn’t start for many Big South teams. Horn needed these guys to build his team around, and I’m now doubting that he’ll be able to recruit suitable replacements. Recruits aren’t going to want to play for a guy who is deemed to be difficult to play for.
Welcome to Garnet and Black Attack, BTW.
Garnet and Black Attack: A Blog By and For Gamecocks Fans.
by Gamecock Man on Mar 25, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
which of these players did you want to build around?
Grey and Holmes (talented) were kicked off for rules violations. The other players were just not good enough to play in the SEC (DeLoach transferred to Chipola JC, Morrow to ECU, Mitchell because he had no chance at playing time, Steed was offered a scholarship to finish school but not play basketball). Galloway is the only player that could contribute in the future but he wanted to play more than Coach Horn thought he should, so he transferred. An open scholarship is more valuable than all these players.
Darrin Horn does have a big recruiting job ahead but I also think he has recruited some nice players over the past 2 years. Horn needs more talented players to cycle through this program and he needs scholarships to do this. I thought after his first two years that the fan base would give him some time to build a program at SC. What if we fired Spurrier after year 3? 4?
Thank you for the welcome, its good to be here.
I was referring to Ellington and Holloway as the guys he was planning to build around.
The Spurrier comparison is interesting, because you’re right that there was a small group of people (myself definitely not included) who wanted him gone after years 3 and 4, and we’d sure have never known what we were missing if that had happened. However, I don’t think Spurrier’s football teams ever struggled quite like the basketball program is right now. Yes, the football team struggled to breakthrough in these years, but it was still generally beating the teams it should and was only rarely getting blown out by average teams. There was hope, and honestly, despite how ugly this past season got, because I’ve always retained some hope for Horn’s program, too, up until this week I’ve always supported giving Horn another year or two. The problem is that now I see little reason to believe that Horn is going to even manage to win as many games next year as he won this year. Would we retain Horn after 2011-2012 if we only win 10 games or so? What’s the point in keeping him for another year when that’s not likely, especially while Gregg Marshall is still available?
Garnet and Black Attack: A Blog By and For Gamecocks Fans.
by Gamecock Man on Mar 26, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Ellington is still on the basketball team, he is just playing football too.
Holloway leaving definitely hurts but he seems like he has personal issues, not Horn issues.
I think Horn still has at least 2 years, especially after reading the comments in The State paper by Hyman and Eddie Floyd. We knew this was going to be a difficult season after losing Downey, and it proved to be. Hopefully we can get some recruits who can step in and make a difference next year. I think we now have 5 scholarships available.
Say we fired Horn after 3 or 4 years. What high profile coach would want this job? We could have taken a shot at Marshall 3 years ago but passed (I don’t know if he was ever contacted). What makes you think he would take the job now? SC basketball is a complete rebuilding project.
It is a rebuilding project,
But after this kind of turnover I think it’s fair to question whether Horn is actually doing any building. Prior to all the defections I was fully in support of giving Horn another. Now, though, I have to wonder when it is we’re actually going to start holding Horn accountable. In four years at Carolina, Horn will essentially have had three “year ones.” He keeps getting a pass because his team is inexperienced, but his teams are inexperienced solely through his own fault.
On thing is for sure, if we keep Horn one more year we’re keeping him for two more years.
Dum spiro spero - "While I breathe, I hope"
State motto of South Carolina
by The Feathered Warrior on Mar 26, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Holmes and Gray would have been
very productive seniors, based on what they accomplished at Coastal – though I agree it might be unfair to blame Coach Horn for dismissing Holmes since he was suspended by Cliff Ellis as well if memory serves.
Carter had played some valuable minutes, so had Steed. I dont see a reason why they couldnt have played out their respective senior seasons. I was ok with Horn’s decision at the time – but I agree with FW that in hindsight it makes me uncomfortable that so many upperclassmen have been shown the door over the past three years. Experience must be married with talent.
Sure DeLoach and Spinella might not have been able to cut the mustard in the SEC. But with respect to Spinella – he was a Horn recruit. So was Galloway. So was Holloway.
Having read Horn’s comments about Galloway (paraphrasing but basically “I can see why the fans are surprised b/c Galloway played a lot of minutes and scored a lot of points, but from a coaching standpoint it wasnt working out”) makes me very iffy about the direction of the program. In connection with Ellington and Holloway, it makes me feel that there are deep flaws with the program and that Horn is not building, but constantly tearing away and starting over.
Compare this squad three years into the Horn era with three years into Fogler and three years into Odom …. and instead of real progress and steady improvement, we have the antithesis. In my limited experience as a fan, it seems basketball teams make steady gains in the first three years, or else they’re in the ditch. This program is in the ditch. And if Holloway and Ellington cannot be talked into committing to basketball, then its likely we’re three years away minimum from fielding a NCAA tournament team – if ever. That’s an eternity in college hoops.
I will concede that Horn has had two nice recruiting classes, but I’m worried the turmoil will scare away Leonard and Gill. I think the Spurrier comparison you make breaks down because Spurrier came to us as a legend from one of the greatest CFB programs of all time – while Horn came to us as a hot young coach from the mid-major ranks with only one (mostly lucky) Sweet 16 run to his credit at WKU. Additionally, it takes much longer to build a football program from the ground up than a hoops program.
They wore garnet helmets.
+1.
I read Horn’s comments about Galloway, and all I could think was that maybe the problem is Horn, not Galloway. Galloway struggled to improve and make good decisions this year, but when you have a coach who’s not clearly rewarding hard work and solid play, why should he? Deciding to cut ties with promising players because “things aren’t working out” seems like iffy decision making to me. It just seems to me that a good coach could do something with a kid like Galloway.
Garnet and Black Attack: A Blog By and For Gamecocks Fans.
by Gamecock Man on Mar 26, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly, At first
I am thinking that Spinnella, a little-played guard, is asked to leave to free up a scholarship for a post player, but that Galloway’s departure was an unpleasant surprise – painful but not a program-breaker.
Then I read Horn’s comments about Galloway. My first thought is "Well, he has to say something – he can’t admit that its a personality conflict or a no-confidence vote by a key underlclassmen who is his second returning scorer [10.7 behind only Bruce Ellington), third returning in assists per game [1.7, behind Ellington and Cooke], second in steals per game [1.1, behind Cooke, slightly ahead of Ellington] and only one of four returning players to average more than 20 min per game despite just 4 starts – not to mention our leading scorer in our last game. Keep in mind that if Galloway stays, only he, Jackson and Cooke are our only upperclassmen … two juniors and one senior.
But the more I read Horn’s comments, the more I wonder – did Horn signal to Galloway that things really weren’t working out. Did he subtly or not so subtly push Galloway out? I would have been begging Galloway to stay. Maybe Horn did and is too proud to say so. But I read his comments and it doesn’t seem like he was overly concerned with Galloway – or Ellington deciding to play football. Only Holloway was the real surprise. But he seems so non-chalant about it. Maybe he has to be that way to save face. Either way – I agree 100% – it is super iffy.
They wore garnet helmets.
Check that - if Holloway and Galloway stay
there would be four upperclassmen returning for 2011-2012 – Holloway, Galloway, Jackson and Cooke.
But the point is the same – now there are just two – Jackson, Cooke.
They wore garnet helmets.
Horn has clearly lost the locker room.
This experiment has met its unfortunate de facto end.
You can call Horn's Sweet 16 run lucky,
but he has two more tournament wins than SC basketball the past 3 decades. Do you realize we haven’t won a tournament game since 1973? I guess we just aren’t lucky.
Horn, to me, seems like a coach who can do a decent job with star players ...
… but struggles to do anything with average talent. Didn’t his Sweet 16 team have a ton of player talent? Two of them were future NBA draft picks, and the rest of the major contributers are probably playing pro ball somewhere in the world. Besides, outside of the tournament run, it’s not like he built that program up. They were already winning a ton of games before he got there. I just don’t see that Horn has done anything all that spectacular, here or at Western Kentucky.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Mar 26, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Besides, they played a five and thirteen seed in the tournament.
They only beat the five seed by two points after having to go into overtime. It’s not like they downed a really good team by a comfortable margin.
stuff 'bout stuff.
by silver82blade on Mar 26, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
True
we’ve had a bad run – losing to a #15 Coppin State and a #12 Richmond.
But even If I concede your point, how can we erase that 38 year old NCAA winning drought if we don’t ever get back?
So the question becomes – can Darrin Horn lead us back? Or is his hold on the team too damaged to make that a realistic possibility – despite two nice recruiting classes – with a handful of veterans? Keep in mind that of the two players he was touting a few short days ago (Holloway and Ellington) as the nexus of the team – one is out the door, and the other wont be available until January, if then.
They wore garnet helmets.
Had Horn "kept" all the players he is accused of "running off"
then it is likely there would have been no room for Holloway, or a couple of the current freshmen. I have not heard anyone mention that.
The only thing that bothers me about what I have heard and read, none of which is inside information and is therefore suspect, is that Horn’s players don’t like him. If that is true, and if that is why some are leaving the program, then that is bad. Horn can stand the media hating him. He can stand many of the fans hating him. But I don’t know how he can stand his players hating him, so to speak. If that is what is really happening, then it might be more than he can overcome.
The NCAA allows
13 scholarships. There were 13 men on the 2010-2011 Gamecocks one of whom was No. 31 Murphy Holloway.
My understanding is the Murphy was a non-scholarship walk-on since Ole Miss refused to release him, and could practice with the team – but not compete – while he sat out his transfer season. That means the Cocks only had 12 scholarship players for the year – obviously making the the 13th scholarship available for Holloway next year.
There were two seniors on the team – Sam Muldrow and Johndre Jefferson. The Cocks have signed letters of intent from two incoming freshmen who have the two resulting scholarships … Anthony Gill and Damien Leonard.
Thus, had Spinella and Galloway stayed with the team, there was room for Holloway, GIll and Leonard in 2011-2012.
Now your point may be that the other guys listed by FW would have clogged up schollies. But I dont think that is the case.
Austin Steed,* Mike Holmes* Chad Gray Trevor DeLoach – Had they remained, they would have been seniors this year – they wouldn’t have counted against Holloway, Gill or Leonard. Likely, we’d have two less sophomores (e.g. Slawson, Smith) or Johndre Jefferson would have been asked to leave early. In any event, Gray and DeLoach were shown the door in 08 so its difficult to claim they would have an impact one way or the other, and Holmes found trouble in Conway too.
Darrius Morrow wanted to play for Davey Odom and ended up ECU back on 08 having signed a LOI but never played for us. I’m not sure it was fair for FW to include him in the “Shown the Door” category.
Mitchell Carter would have been a senior in 2009-2010, so he wouldnt have impacted Gill, Leonard or Holloway.
So, assuming Leonard and Gill enroll (which is by no means guaranteed), that will mean currently we have 9 scholarship players for 2011-2012:
Malik Cooke – Sr.
Lakeem Jackson – Jr.
Eric Smith – Soph.
Brian Richardson – Soph.
RJ Slawson – Soph
Demontre Harris – Soph
Carlton Geathers – Soph
Anthony Gill – Fr
Damien Leonard – Fr.
That bothers me tremendously!
They wore garnet helmets.
I think so too.
The program has fallen to shambles under his short watch. Time to make a move.
by Skulls and Spurs on Mar 26, 2011 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if the bball team disarray will hurt our chances with Shaq Roland.
by Skulls and Spurs on Mar 26, 2011 1:28 AM EDT reply actions
I think Eric Hyman is a great AD who has helped foster real change, but...
…I don’t think the basketball program is being looked after very well. Not right now, at least. Unfortunately, he’s been very adamant in his support of Horn so far, even with these recent incidents. I don’t know if it’s an ego thing for him or what; maybe he really does believe in Horn. But to that end, I doubt we’ll see Horn get fired for another 1-2 seasons. Just a feeling I have.
I agree that basketball doesn't seem to be a priority for Hyman.
It’s hard to blame him for that, though, when so many Gamecocks fans seem to share the sentiment.
Garnet and Black Attack: A Blog By and For Gamecocks Fans.
by Gamecock Man on Mar 26, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think that's a fair statement.
Horn made women’s basketball a priority by hiring Dawn Staley (oh and that will be a fun day if Dawn leaves us for UVA soon). He’s supported by the men’s basketball program by making a change when it was clear Odom wasn’t taking us anywhere and upgraded the locker rooms in the CLA. He may have made a bad hire in Horn, but it was Lane Kiffin bad. What else do you want him to do?
Dum spiro spero - "While I breathe, I hope"
State motto of South Carolina
by The Feathered Warrior on Mar 26, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Youre right
Horn was at the top of everyone’s “hot coaching prospect” lists back in 08. Even though Horn wasn’t a household name, the basketball community applauded Hyman for the hire. Unfortunately, it hasn’t worked out that well – and it’s currently in a free fall – so its time to cut our losses.
The boards are full of rumors that Hyman is not a Gregg Marshall fan. I have no way to judge if that’s true or false. I do think Hyman relies heavily on Coach Fogler’s opinion (and by all accounts, Fogler played a leading role in getting us Horn). So it will be very interesting to see what pans out. Like Gamecock Man, I am a big Marshall supporter and its my hope that if Horn does resign/leave, we turn the reins over to Marshall.
They wore garnet helmets.
Marshall may not be the nicest guy...
but a heck of a coach. I can remember when he was up here at Winthrop, going on the local cable station and basically chewing out the community for not supporting Winthrop hoops. That was in the midst of their run…maybe a year before they beat Notre Dame. I thought to myself, “That guy has got guts…maybe not the best at selling the public on a program. However, that is one thing that wins will do by itself.”
Now that he’s not going to UT—only Missouri, NC State, and Ga Tech are possibilities…or we might have another year to get him. I agree, he’s the guy I’ve wanted for at least 5 years. If he doesn’t do it, oh well. But he grew up a Gamecock—had season football tickets—he’s a guy that would love to give it a shot. McGee wanted him at one point (so says the rumors—maybe when he hired Odom) but a few big shot donors shot it down….
And by Horn I meant Hyman...
Dum spiro spero - "While I breathe, I hope"
State motto of South Carolina
by The Feathered Warrior on Mar 26, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
If anything good comes out of Holloway not staying, at least we're bound to see what Geathers has to offer.
He may stink, or he may not, but either way it should be entertaining for a few games at least.
stuff 'bout stuff.

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